Steam deck fan curve. The new Steam Deck beta firmware tries to rectify this by changing the conditions which cause the fan to ramp up to maximum overdrive - and while the improvement is not a total cure-all when the. Steam deck fan curve

 
The new Steam Deck beta firmware tries to rectify this by changing the conditions which cause the fan to ramp up to maximum overdrive - and while the improvement is not a total cure-all when theSteam deck fan curve  Buying an SD Card

Valve has only just put SteamOS 3. While playing indie games or most light games, the fan will run anywhere between 2500 and 3500rpm. The other big feature already in testing is a new fan curve. Valve claims that this will allow for the Steam Deck to operate slightly quieter, thanks to an adjusted fan curve and a thin piece of foam. The Sony WH-1000XM5 headphones can be folded flat for easy storage. Use soft plastic spudgers, not screwdrivers, to pry it open once the. I'll deal with the slight noise over instability. There is not a practical difference in games' performance in most games between steamOS and Windows. The Steam Deck switched its fans in some retail units vs. The fix is being applied to both models of fans used in Decks, both of which will continue to be used. Note: the stutter you see when switching refresh rat. Next, go to Google or any other effective search. The fan is no longer running at max speed most of the time and the whine is mostly eliminated. Old Fans. It is not perfect, as it is missing GPU temperature reading. 2 now comes with an OS-controlled fan curve. 2 includes: Added an OS-controlled fan curve to improve the experience in low usage scenarios, and adjusting how the fan responds to different scenarios and temperatures. Yet the fan starts, sometimes even in the Deck's UI. This tests the Delta vs. It currently has a bug, where it does not reapply after waking from sleep. In lieu of the day when we will be able to create our own fan curve, we have two options with different perks. Cpu fan speed. I had no temp issues and the deck was mostly quiet. review units, causing some controversy over perceived "noisiness" of the Steam Deck. I’m actually quite surprised we’re getting it for free. The Sony WH-1000XM5 headphones can be folded flat for easy storage. Ran a cooling test with the JSAUX Cooler vs the Fantastic Plugin with the fan set at 7000RPM) Witcher 3 Ultimate settings - Room Temp 18. You might think default fan curve is bad, but if you are playing a demanding multi-player game, the fan rpm is high on both modes anyway, so you wouldn't really notice a. It's been a few weeks since I've played with my steam deck and now it seems like no matter what I do the fan is running. **UPDATE JAN 18: Ran some more tests with the witcher 3, 50 minute test brought temps up 2 degrees to 79°C and 81°C with fan speeds at 4867rpmrpm. But yes adjusting the fan curve can certainly help and can improve performance the lower temps are. But you still want to keep temps as low as possible. I’m actually quite surprised we’re getting it for free. The Verdict. The Steam Deck is thermally and power constrained, so overclocking isn't very beneficial. Steam Deck > General Discussions > Topic Details. SteamOS 3. I also tested with an external fan up against the metal plate and the results were fucking insane. Fan problem. Also last week, Asus pledged to push out an update to its ROG Ally customers which would tweak the device's fan curves. Comments (Image credit: Valve) Coming with the latest Beta update for. See all instructions here: Applications. This is what i got WITHOUT the "advanced fan management". I've heard the newest Beta has fan curve back to aggresive. That seems enough to run anything I play at 30fps at least. I noticed after the 3. It is smarter than the old BIOS-controlled system, so the fan. . 2. FCLK Control - Works for Renior H and might work for steam deck, CZN apus, and Rembrant apus. When the latest SteamOS fan curve comes into the stable branch it would already be awesome to have that on. the fan is constantly on in the Deck's UI and yet the temperature is only like 2-3°C cooler than the curve that has the fan off until higher temperatures. My new 64GB has a H fan with the new back padding. When paired with an NVIDIA Turing graphics card, the new EVGA Precision X1 will unleash its full potential with a built in overclock scanner, adjustable frequency curve and RGB LED control. While fumbling around the Steam Deck subreddit today, I came across a really cool modification that someone made. 3. Steam deck's weakness is CPU performance for the most part. So I've finally been able to order my Steam Deck and now I find out that they apparently come with two different fans, one shitty and one good one. Modified the Ally’s fan curve from 30dBA to 35dBA in Turbo mode when plugged in, and from 25dBA to 30 dBA in Turbo mode when using the battery. Steam Deck’s Latest Update Is Sure To Stir Debate Valve's efforts to quiet the device could inadvertently lower its lifespan—or maybe not By Claire Jackson. Near the lower section of the window you will see a section with fan speed percentages. 99 HB0801 ( via Overkill. Using the Fantastic plugin for custom fan curves, those fan speeds in the photos are not stock. After upgrading to stable 3. When the Deck launched, it shipped with an extremely noisy fan to cool its AMD Zen 2 and RDNA 2 silicon, and owners like me have been dealing with its volume and constant whine from day one. The old version of the fan curve is still available, and can be turned on in Settings > System. SnooDogs4822 • 8 mo. Feel free to share gaming benchmarks and troubleshoot. 2 update includes an "all-new OS-controlled fan curve," which allows the fan to respond quickly and smartly to the temperatures inside the Steam Deck. I found an issue regarding the updated fan curve on build 20221005. Step 14 Cut a plastic card in half. (Note: The 512GB model of the Steam Deck does technically retail for more than the 512GB ROG Ally at $650 vs. r/SteamDeck. Steam Deck owners can now grab a new beta update – if they’re feeling brave enough to run a patch still in. Moving on, SteamOS 3. YouTube™ Video: The Steam Deck's Big Controversy - New vs. Looked at temperatures and there were over 80°C and quickly reached over 90°C. As it turns out, there's multiple fans being used in the Steam Deck, and one of them gives this. Would be very grateful if someone from Valve could provide drivers for Windows users so that we can adjust the fan curve. . I found an issue regarding the updated fan curve on build 20221005. Yeah, DigitalFoundry also did an video on this a while ago. Remove your SD card first; some people have snapped theirs in half because the case effectively guillotines it as it pops open. r/SteamDeck today self. Default curve (BIOS) is very loud. The new OLED display is the main selling point, but this updated. An. com] ' stopped working and seems to have discontinued development, could we finally have a native function to control the Fan Curve? - to be able to set something between the aggressive turbine of the "old fan curve. I'd much, much rather have the current beta fan curve than the terrible, useless, noisy/whiny fan I had before. I'm told that the updated one is quieter, but less cool, and my deck has a quiet fan, but freezes up when it gets too hot, so it needs as much cooling as it can get. I can even play Elden Ring at high settings/30 fps while keeping the Deck. So I was trying to tweak a non-steam version of a game for performance when I noticed despite a 15W power draw the deck wasn't making any noise. Recent betas have had really pleasant fan curves. When the latest SteamOS fan curve comes into the stable branch it would already be awesome to have that on Windows 11 as it is much more quiet. I had no temp issues and the deck was mostly quiet. I personally found the new fan control to be quieter but hotter. Keep your finger on the heat pipe so it doesn’t bend. Fantastic 7000RPM Delta of -9c with a DB of 60. However, if anyone is adventurous to try it feel free to grab precompiled GitHub release. 0:05 - Desktop mode - 0rpm - 42°C. It’s a 12-in-1 dual-monitor dock offering up to 4K120. So I just downloaded the 40hz beta patch and played subnautica. It seems AMD knows about the issue because it's not exclusive to the Deck. It was reported online that Valve found an alternate way to control the fan noise and still use the Delta fan. Or the fan is really loud. and a software update that changes the fan curve. Compared to the ambient noise in my house or when I'm sitting outside, I don't hear the whoosh at these speeds. Asus ROG Ally. Before it was like the fan had three modes; whiny, whinier and obnoxious. I wish there was a fan-control and simple TDP slider in command center so that I wouldn't have to tinker with manual mode so much. 8. Steam Deck Overheating. #1. Also using the updated fan curve. 2 Beta is now available for Steam Deck users. Someone recently developed a fan control addon for windows that copies the steamOS fan curve, you can try that. I certainly can't play it near others relaxing in the same room. Valve has only just put SteamOS 3. Would be very grateful if someone from Valve could provide drivers for Windows users so that we can adjust the fan curve. Steam Deck. I think the reason they are using Delta fans again is because they are probably the best at airflow and static pressure. Old Fans. i found in power setting in Power Options you can find the AMD Power Slider /Overlay/ On battery I set it to Better Battery and Plugged In i set it to Better Performance. If you run . The Desktop Mode keyboard is fixing the fact that they didn't have any convenient way to flag the keyboard to open. This Steam Deck update introduces a new fan curve, which Valve says should “improve the experience in low usage scenarios,” while also “adjusting how the. Some people thought the fan sound was a problem. If you hear a high pitched tone you are probably having issues with the fan model though. Click on the “Fan” tab to get started. The updated fan curve has the fan spin a lot less and a lot slower which helps a ton, only if you are really stressing the Deck and the fan spins up to like 5000rpm, then it turns into a dog whistle again. I can even play Elden Ring at high settings/30 fps while keeping the Deck. * Put on demanding game * GPU clocks to 80-90% sometimes lower though often higher * Temperatures keep raising and don't stop, going into high 90s * Meanwhile gpu is still around 80-90%+ * fan eventually. I certainly can't play it near others relaxing in the same room. Now with the beta fan curve adjustment things have been fine, at least when the actual updates stick. Valve announced the Steam Deck OLED in November 2023. Fan Behavior. This update contains features that are still in testing, such as an OS-controlled fan curve, experimental. Now the tone isn't noticeable until about 5000rpm. The fan is no longer running at max speed most of the time and the whine is mostly eliminated. My fan curve basically looks like this: the bottom left corner is 0% max temp 0% fan speed. This magnetic cooling fan offers two cooling modes: normal and extremely cold. Updated fan curve issue when resuming from sleep. Not sure if anyone else is experiencing this. Comments (Image credit: Valve) Coming with the latest Beta update for the Steam. Elden Ring is one of the exceptions to this rule. Wow, another big #SteamDeck update with #SteamOS 3. The Steam Deck OLED makes the best handheld gaming console even better. the top right corner is 100% max temp 100% fan speed. The previous couple of beta updates were blissful. I have noticed a similar issue and found it was down to the fan controller script bugging out while polling the nvme temp file after the deck resumes from sleep. Buying an SD Card. Give the end user a choice between different fan profiles that will kick on the fan sooner/later. ) Steam Deck 5 Minute Tutorial - Dolphin GameCubeSubscribe To My Channel!me on Twitter!For your information, God of War makes the deck fan go to 5000/5500RPM, sometimes it peaks at 6000 if you're playing for a long session of time. Lower tdp, make sure the new fan curve is turned on, or play less demanding games. That certainly sounds better than stuffing a big-ass wad of electrical tape inside your unit. #2. Photo by Sean Hollister / The Verge. The fan is no longer running at max speed most of the time and the whine is mostly eliminated. So i Just went with the normal SD Fan curve. I have been away from my deck for about a week or so now and was informed today that the deck got an update to fix it's fan curve to make it quieter, however when I go to patch notes I don't see it mentioned anywhere, is this a hidden fix or what as the deck sounds a bit quieter but I have only used it for about 10 minutes now The fan in the Steam Deck used to get noisy (image credit: iFixit) Moving on, SteamOS 3. Worth mentioning I am running a 256Gb Samsung PM991A on the latest firmware 2630. The LISEN Steam Deck Dock is perfect for those that need a little extra cooling for their ROG Ally. I have windows 11 as well. The new fan curve ramps them up and down but are generally more quiet. Steam Deck beta 3. I've been really annoyed with my Steam Deck since getting it, due to the obnoxious, whiny fan. I can even play Elden Ring at high settings/30 fps while keeping the Deck. JSAUX Cooler max fan speed Delta of -10c With a DB of 66. 2 update includes an "all-new OS-controlled fan curve," which allows the fan to respond quickly and smartly to the temperatures inside the Steam Deck. Would be very grateful if someone from Valve could provide drivers for Windows users so that we can adjust the fan curve. I’ve torn through all 150 hours of Elden Ring and. Steam Deck 5 Minute Tutorial - Dolphin GameCubeSubscribe To My Channel!me on. Views: 348,222. Check the temps with the overlay. Due to a small number of very vocal moaning ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that must play silent games in the local library, Valve have made the fan quieter, by running it slower, and therefore it runs hotter. Now with the beta fan curve adjustment things have been fine, at least when the actual updates stick. I can even play Elden Ring at high settings/30 fps while keeping the Deck. Would be very grateful if someone from Valve could provide drivers for Windows users so that we can adjust the fan curve. JSAUX Back Plate Tests. The fan is no longer running at max speed most of the time and the whine is mostly eliminated. it's for linux but there is a slight chance one of those opensource tools is crossplatform. For some decks like my original one the steam buttons still work and you would have to force quit the game. 5. This update contains features that are still in testing, such as an OS-controlled fan curve, experimental. Not true, but ok. Ready to open up my Steam Deck. When the latest SteamOS fan curve comes into the stable branch it would already be awesome to have that on Windows 11 as it is much more quiet. Modders will be happy to hear replacement fans for the Steam Deck could come from iFixit. AutoModerator • 1 yr. The Desktop Mode keyboard is fixing the fact that they didn't have any convenient way to flag the keyboard to open. I think it might have been happening whilst playing Yakuza 0 but I had headphones on so I can't say for sure. I installed Windows 11 over a month ago and played a game on game pass (Life Is Strange Colors) for a couple of weeks. Steam Fan Control allows you to change how the fans operate. Now with the beta fan curve adjustment things have been fine, at least when the actual updates stick. 18. 0:18 - Final Fanatsy 4. Now with 40fps 40hz on the game actually is better to play but the fan is not spinning that much in conclusion the deck gets really hot after like 10 minutes. Custom fan curve? Sometimes the fan is unbearable and I would like to have control over this. I'm having a hard time. Though I would say that it's a bit alarming that it Weighs over 600 grams, it doesn't sound comfortable for a handheld portable. Even the same fan blade, motor assembly can have noise variance just based on the motor winding. In our Steam Deck review, we benchmarked Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Red Dead Redemption 2, Horizon Zero Dawn, Borderlands 3, Civilization VI and Guardians of the Galaxy. When the latest SteamOS fan curve comes into the stable branch it would already be awesome to have that on. That's it! PS: Don't listen to outdated YouTube videos about Windows on Steam Deck. 2 Beta. Posted May 20, 2020. My fan had a fault, and despite having my Steam Deck for two+ weeks, and taking it to pieces, the repair centre didn't actually repair the fault. sh from the backend-rs directory on a Linux system with cargo installed. I tend to prefer low noise over low temps with a handheld though. Point at ~60% max temp 50% fan speed. it doesn't seem to keep the fans going at the custom levels i set if I close the application or from desktop to game mode, but I added it as a steam app and just open it in gampadui and let it run in the background when I need some extra cooling. Comments (Image credit: Future/CD Project Red) May 19's Steam OS 3. App. One such plugin is Fantastic that allows you to set manual fan curves. Testing Different Thermal Pastes/Medias Steam Deck. Huaying review fans. It’s most likely fine; the Deck runs hotter than a standard PC. Research the best SD card for the Steam Deck before buying one! Don't buy cheap brands either. The first is that Valve are trying to deal with all the noise complaints about the fan. I would like to be able to push the fan. This is actually to the benefit of the consumer. I get most out of 10 watts. The fan is no longer running at max speed most of the time and the whine is mostly eliminated. Your device can overheat, break or whoever knows what else. Yet the fan starts, sometimes even in the Deck's UI. All Discussions Artwork Videos News Guides Reviews. Curve Optimizer for certain APUs commonly unlocked 5000 series - however this can be done through windows using UXTU for all affected models; How this works. Playing Elden Ring, the fan now runs a good 1000 rpm faster (4000+ rpm) which is where it starts whining. The team has been hard at work on Steam Deck’s fan behavior, and this update has an all-new OS-controlled fan curve. 99. I hear the airflow but other than that doesn’t. As such I often find myself switching between enabling the new fan control for less demanding games and switching to the old louder but cooler one for more demanding games. Beyond tweaks to the operating system, the ability to adjust the fan curve on your Steam Deck was introduced via update. Giriş Yap Mağaza. that's an old video, so the "new" fan here is the noisy. Has there been any update on whether or not Valve has stopped putting the shitty ones in?. Tip for anyone doing the replacement: if the long sticker on the fan is hard to peel up (don’t rip it, it’s to direct airflow), take the screws off the fan first and lightly pull with the fan up at a 90 degree angle. The fan curve is addressing an issue with shitty fans that Valve sourced as well as AMDs poor Linux thermal management over the Ryzen era. All Steam Deck LCD variants can be identified by model number 1010. If you can hear the fan, your speaker volume is too low. Changed the minimum fan speed in Manual mode. Sony WH-1000XM5 ( $387 at Amazon ): This is a fantastic pair of headphones with superb active noise canceling (ANC). Instead, it uses USDPL written in Rust. i. Has anyone tried using any software in Windows for controlling the fan curve and if so what do you recommend for both software and your. I have a really noisy fan, Valve picked a garbage part to use in the Deck. 1 into the Stable channel with tons of improvements and there's already a Beta available for SteamOS 3. It just works! Even without kernel drivers enabled, you don't really lose much. Jared Newman / Foundry. If you want full control of all your fans (Including GPU fans) then this app is King and it's free. Sometimes I have to reboot my Deck 3-4 times for the fan curve to actually stick. Hi everyone this is a PSA to anyone using Steam Deck Tools Fan Control, I launched the game two seconds in I get booted out and got a message saying "Banned for life". A new update introduces a new fan curve. Ran a cooling test with the JSAUX Cooler vs the Fantastic Plugin with the fan set at 7000RPM) Witcher 3 Ultimate settings - Room Temp 18. Steam Deck Tools is a must have application for everyone using Windows on their Steam Deck. 2, build 20221005. 【Efficient Cooling】The high-speed turbine in the Steam Deck cooler efficiently extracts the heat generated by the CPU and rapidly drops the CPU's temperature, not just the surface, which improves the performance and stability of the Steam Deck. . Genki Covert Dock will work with the Steam Deck per email from Genki. By default on windows there is no fan curve on the deck, which means the fans will sound like a jet as you use them. NtO89 43 minutes ago. tested fine, we opted for a re-wind anyways due to life span etc. Valve has only just put SteamOS 3. 3. You can do this by right clicking on the icon. I can even play Elden Ring at high settings/30 fps while keeping the Deck mostly quiet. I don't worry about the slightly higher average temps, because. Either way, its sounding silent right now while downloading games. But I'm happy to say that the latest beta update has changed this in a really significant way. I can even play Elden Ring at high settings/30 fps while keeping the Deck. When the latest SteamOS fan curve comes into the stable branch it would already be awesome to have that on. The overclocking results are much closer, trading blows across the board, but at the expense of the stock backplate heating up much more as we saw before. I've been really annoyed with my Steam Deck since getting it, due to the obnoxious, whiny fan. Not only that, the whole console used to get a bit hot, and would stay at around 60c. Buying an SD Card. Looked at the fan speed and it was at 0. To change the fan curve, enter bios, then click on hardware monitor. The deck stays way too silent. The deck stays way too silent. I've installed the latest preview update from 2023/11/13/, "The OLED Update". If you want lower temps and a slower fan, you have to cap the. even though the temps are fine. You can change the fan setting in the system settings. Select Switch to Desktop. This Sceptre 24-inch curved gaming monitor is right around 100 bucks. Some folks on the discord have been looking into this for ages. Currently the stable provides good temperatures while gaming, but the fan curve is way too aggressive (fan is loud even at main Steam OS menu), and the beta provides a much quieter fan but at the expense of much higher temperatures. But I'm happy to say that the latest beta update has changed this in a really significant way. It was seriously impacting my enjoyment of the Steam Deck. Playing any game that's not an indie title makes the deck go berserk. Add a comment. Should be installable from the "Holo" system you. Worried about the Steam Deck's fan noise after watching a Aya Neo video. Let's go over the main changes. I use the old fan curve, i prefer more noise to more heat. Many games that used to pump the fan to 100% are now using 20-30% fan speeds. Enter System Information in the text field at the top and click on the relevant search result that appears. exe file. Adapting the current SteamOS Fan Curve for Steam Deck #246. review units, causing some controversy over perceived "noisiness" of the Steam Deck. Even with the fan curve, I'd wager you'd see high temps on windows desktop than Linux or steam OS. Your Steam Deck, Exactly how you want it. After the update the fan doesn't spin up enough, with CPU / GPU. It has done wonders for the noise levels of the Delta fan, particularly when playing less-intensive games. Armored Core 6 Steam Deck performance (30 FPS lock, 1280x720, 11TDP, DeckyRecorder footage) 307. 2 Beta now available. I had no temp issues and the deck was mostly quiet. not good. If you use 15W or 30W charger and play demanding game on Steam Deck while charging, you might still drain battery. A hair dryer or heat gun may also be used, but be careful not to overheat the Steam Deck—displays and internal batteries are both susceptible to heat damage. This means that overall it’s smarter, more responsive to what’s. If you say it's a shitty plugin then don't install it. Now with the beta fan curve adjustment things have been fine, at least when the actual updates stick. And that’s exactly what the recent SteamOS beta update has done for the Steam Deck. Custom Fan Curve Settings. The nvme is using a curve I don't quite understand, but the charge controller seems to set a baseline of 2000 rpm when the deck is connected/charging, and the cpu/gpu both share the same quadratic curve. When the latest SteamOS fan curve comes into the stable branch it would already be awesome to have that on. The biggest tradeoff I see for linux is that you can't get all your data sent to microsoft and you can't experience the wonders of your deck using extra power on useless background tasks. But I'm happy to say that the latest beta update has changed this in a really significant way. ago. I certainly can't play it near others relaxing in the same room. But now, when I play the same game, the temp stays around 50 to 55c, and I don't hear the fan at all. Especially the one after the botched one that turned the fan off most of the time. 1 watts. 2 also adds. For your information, God of War makes the deck fan go to 5000/5500RPM, sometimes it peaks at 6000 if you're playing for a long session of time. I used to hardwire my gaming laptops fan at max speed yet the fan never broke so I am not afraid of using aggressive fan-curve. nope, but you can ask in the steamdeckwindows sub, I think you need to download 3rd party software as a work around. Hi everyone this is a PSA to anyone using Steam Deck Tools Fan Control, I launched the game two seconds in I get booted out and got a message saying "Banned for life". Fantastic ist not working anymore. 1 into the Stable channel with tons of improvements and there's already a Beta available for SteamOS 3. In lieu of the day when we will be able to create our own fan curve, we have two options with different perks. I have a really noisy fan, Valve picked a garbage part to use in the Deck. Would be very grateful if someone from Valve could provide drivers for Windows users so that we can adjust the fan curve. ago. Custom Fan Curve Settings. ago. My experience with the Steam Deck so far (48 hours) 1. Cap it to 40 fps in general, works fine for me with every game I’ve played so far. From my research, this a Linux problem. Several users have attested to superior performance than Steam Link, so if you're not satisfied with the image qualify, FPS or input lag when using Steam Link, then Moonshine / Sunshine may the superior choice. The first is that Valve are trying to deal with all the noise complaints about the fan. But I'm happy to say that the latest beta update has changed this in a really significant way. The fix is being applied to both models of fans used in Decks, both of which will continue to be used. This is t. Before ordering a replacement fan, remove the back cover of your Steam Deck to check what version you have. American LoCOmotive Apr 25, 2022 @ 7:26pm. 0 ports(5Gbps), 3*USB2. I've had the deck for about 3 days now and the fan has just started to randomly ramp up for 2 seconds then stop. I tested with the updated fan curve off, and it ran 88-90C. What game? #3. When it’s off it’s the old curve. Custom Fan Curve Settings Since the ' Fantastic [github. This is what i got WITHOUT the "advanced fan management". AMD Overclocking menu - Most settings that are in here should work if the menu appears for. this frequency plot with a bpf curve calculated from fan speed measurements: 4000rpm would be 3100 Hz bpf, since. Due to a small number of very vocal moaning ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that must play silent games in the local library, Valve have made the fan quieter, by running it slower, and therefore it runs hotter. One Week with Steam Deck - Here is my contribution: NiceDeck!My deck seems to be getting seriously hot and nothing I do seems to be correcting it other than playing lesser demanding games. Most other really CPU intense games are probably the same, about 89-90C from the CPU sensor. Playing Elden Ring, the fan now runs a good 1000 rpm faster (4000+ rpm) which is where it starts whining. It did not reach it's original temps throughout this test. ago. Windows 11- change fan curve? Tech Support. The previous couple of beta updates were blissful. 0:15 - Steam OS - 0rpm - 42°C. It’s amusing how much I can max out the Deck with Morrowind. Save your money and download Fantastic. or 3) The noise is being caused by something other than the fan (seems unlikely), and the repair centre just didn't bother to check if they'd found the problem before sending it back.